Elder-Rule governance removes any hope of independent accountability the elders are originally self-appointed and thereafter elder-appointed. So I canceled my move. Im confused about your statement that the crowd Jesus drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. To donate, click here. I really enjoyed the music and people. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? So you think women are getting a little uppity and having ideas above their station?. Humility and pride has been an issue as many of us see, but since you are the first one to throw the stone, if you used this time to share the Gospel with others (I bet some would get saved) as Lord wants us to rely on Him and have the Holy Spirit to guide us. I take at face value Susan has hurt and I feel compassion for her. We see this is the third article this month youve found worth reading. Forgot account? How many have you all lead to Christ? Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. Pray snd ask the Lord for that, sure many here are upset, but not many know what has taken place fully, you judgmental hypocrites. One question is Positional authority deals with executing responsibilities within an organization, like a general in an army, the president of bank, or the pastor of a church. Wagner should have sold the home and elected to live a less extravagant neighborhood (Highland Park). All white and all men has nothing to do with anything. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. I started to plan how to move near Plano so I could attend Watermark Plano. Gotcha. what is lavish? Seems like theres a lot of hurting people with a lot to hide on this thread. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? At least that was my experienceRead more , The house referenced in the post belongs to the correct Todd Wagner. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? Smarmy Thesaurus Hi. Came off as legalistic trolling. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. Ill also go into more detail about how Watermark Church does resemble a cult, and how some of their teachings are harmful and potentially abusive. Every argument you put forth seems to be based on your subjective opinion based on your speculation, assumption, and judgement.. Watermark encourages people to confess their sins to one another and to admonish faithfully but thats because thats what the Bible tells us to do as believers.. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) Best wishes to the church members, though. trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. I admit I also used to automatically discredit stories Like this one when I heard them. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. Watermark might want the groups to be run a certain way, but that doesnt mean the group has to follow the rules. Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home. The first being last and the last being first is not how most Christians think. But it still feels like something is off. If I was a member of this church my motivation for remaining or leaving would be almost entirely based upon trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. Its clear as mud. We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. 1 Pet 2:25 . We didnt share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. And then they agree to work on the same board? In His end the crowd that He drew wanted to see Him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. Watermark is a community of faithful, creative, authentic Christ-followers who are united in one purpose: to be and make disciples of Jesus. This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. have caused them to *go astray,*. The church was founded on Biblical principles from families that really love the Lord. If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. Todd Wagner, senior pastor of Watermark Community Churcha multi-site megachurch in the Dallas area with an average attendance of 11,000announced yesterday that. Amazing indeed! Watermark Church is certainly not alone in taking a stance against homosexuality. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. that would be a better fit. He then applied the words Paul used to describe his apostolic ministry in Acts 20:26-32 to his own tenure at Watermark: With a clear conscience, Im going to say this to you, Wagner said. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about Unless you were present for every worship service, bible study & community group meeting (including the all-female group that Susan was a member of), you cannot say that what she heard, wasnt said and that what she was asked to do, wasnt asked of her. +++++++++++++++. A calendar of future events, classes, Bible studies, and programs happening with Watermark Community Church. Thats the problem often times one comes on a hot seat and forgets one day would come that same thing that man have to face. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. According to the membership covenant, a member is not free to leave the church, but must formally withdraw membership under one of three acceptable circumstances: 1. Im saying that outta love and also saying it truly saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts. Watermark Churchs membership process first requires that you sign themembership covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online. in ones own city or metropolis, for starters. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. Andrew Bhatia business Top 100. In our case, it is because those in leadership are held to a higher standard; more is expected of them in terms of their beliefs and practice. In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. It appears to attract a fairly high income crowd if their building program is any indication of the amount of money coming into the church. Its ridiculous to give issue for a house he lives in, that he himself didnt purchase. Additionally, unless you have seen all of the financial reports from the last 22 yrs, you have no idea how Wagner was compensated. (note spelling a/e) I have met small groups all over the Dallas area of cast aside individuals who bonded over the abuse they experienced while attending this organization. He can be only the center ofRead more . For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God., Wagner also warned the congregation with words from the passage, stating that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and from your own selves men will (rise up), speaking perverse things. Then, modifying Pauls description of his three years spent in Ephesus to Wagners 22 years at Watermark, Wagner added, Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of 22 years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears., The congregation at Watermark responded to Wagner with a standing ovation. Move away 2.Join another (approved) church 3. Confession, of course! We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. Todd Wagner was preaching. See more of Watermark Community Church on Facebook. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. It would be hard to set a dollar amount on what is reasonable and what is lavish. I bet some of you, dont attend or are part of the church, Jealousy amongst many of you I can smell from here. Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. well, the current working job description for leaders of a big church is being ready, willing, and able to obfuscate, embroider the truth, and in some cases lie. I didnt feel the spirit when I heard him. I was a member for nearly 14 years, sure bunch of us saw some challenges (as some churches may face) not doubt. We've put together a list of some ways . Thanks for sharing. Thats not true. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. They have brought a civil lawsuit against the Church of Scientology for stalking and intimidation that occurred after they reported their assaults to the police. Thats a new one on me. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. Products. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. It is very helpful and lets us plan financially well. The house was gifted to him by an extremely successful member of the church. to verify your name calling., Which of the victims of I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? Our church does Re-engage and we love it. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. Another $ maker? I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. I think Im getting the hang of this Christianese thing. That is one huge cult. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. You cant find any. Just because you havent personally experienced or have personal knowledge of these things happening does NOT mean they didnt happen to someone else. I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. The man and his wife were Watermark members. Its inappropriate and wrong for a pastor serving the church to live an opulent lifestyle. To donate, Pastor of Dallas Megachurch Dogged by Allegations of Spiritual Abuse Announces Hes Taking a Break, https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Vineyard Pastor Resigns, Wont Cooperate With Probe Into Sons Alleged Misconduct. Many churches won't consider an openly gay man or woman for the clergy. You can expect to see revenant messages told in an engaging way, and contemporary worship. Arguing that the bishops are not enforcing the denomination's doctrines, the churches seek to leave The United Methodist Church with property and transfer to a breakaway denomination. Todd especially. And some community groups are less intense. (I share this not to be super-negative, but just because this practice is far [], CALL TO ACTION Former WM Members Did WM pray for you, or did WM prey on you? Speculation, in this context, equates to gossip, and at its heart, is pride. For ye were as *sheep going astray;* Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. Church leaders concealed sexual abuse of young children, lawsuits allege. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. It took a tremendous amount of courage for this person to come forward and tell their story, for fear of reactions like yours. I think you may have missed a decimal point according to the link in the post his house (verified to be the correct Todd Wagner) was a little over $1.5 million as of 2019. Smarmy Dictionary Kind of smarmy too., You use some strong name calling, words Just the congregationhmmmmmm.. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. You can tailor it to your groups needs On 05/28/2008 THE STATE OF TEXAS filed a Property - Eminent Domain lawsuit against WATERMARK COMMUNITY CHURCH. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. This case was filed in Dallas County Texas Courts, Dallas County Texas Courts At Law located in Dallas, Texas. Yeah, I glanced at it. At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. You are right, being up front about it is important. Really miss your sermons and spirit led preaching. Wow. If I had to guess the Sr Pastor Todd agreed to leave if the concerned pastor Steve agreed to resign. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. Just because you have never been abused in the way these people have, does not negate that they were. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. Not now. Sort of as God told him and his wife that it was time to move on to the next thing God has planned. (How many of you have actually prayed for Todd)? There was one guy that didnt want to shareRead more . Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. And in Ecclesiastes 12:14, For God will bring every deedRead more , I would be curious to know if you are ok with disclosing all of your financial information to your community group and seeking their approval on life decisions? The Judge overseeing this case is TAPSCOTT, KEN. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. If not? I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. Kind of smarmy too. i expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth. Im heart broke and still excited to see what Lord and how He is going to carry out this. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? 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